Author: STEVE
To: John & Bob
I find much to agree with in Bob’s thoughts, and much to discuss with John. Both of your responses contain a depth I won’t come close to matching. Here are a few remarks.
Common Ground with Bob
Perhaps surprisingly, there is nothing in what you wrote, Bob, that jumps out at me as a stark contrast to my understanding of God, based on my Bible-oriented approach. I was particularly struck by the obstacles that have diminished. You (and Spong?) couldn’t have said it better, something like, “Don’t get stuck in debating whether the Bible is literally true or not. Rather, what does it mean?” I would even take that a step farther, “What does it mean for me – what can I learn about God and his expectations for my life as I read?”
Your desire to build a core belief is admirable. This is a growing process, shaped by what we read, what we experience, and right now, what we are sharing with each other. My core belief will grow in this process as well, and I continue to relish this exchange.
You noted, “I can’t believe unless I perceive the God I am worshipping to be more fair, more proportionately just, more compassionate, more loving, and more grandly humble than the best human being(s) among us.” What a remarkably succinct statement of God, and what it will take for you to worship him! Your efforts to build a core belief around this spiritual desire will surely be rewarded!
As we proceed, it will be helpful to know what you place within, and what you place outside that core, from your reading of the Bible (and any other writings).
The Three of Us on Common Ground Regarding
“There” (Heaven)
We seem to have a similar concept of
“there” – a union/reunion with God. There’s a passage in the Bible, I can’t put my fingers on it, that
states something like, “We can see but a dim reflection of God now, but in the
future we will see (and know) him in all his glory. Heaven isn’t necessarily a physical place, but a perfect and
eternal union with God (which will include Spong’s Christine and all our loved
ones).
But “there” will also include some
unlikely beneficiaries. I do not know
the heart of Hitler or Tim McVeigh, nor what they did (will do) in their dying
moments. But I fully expect that people
who have wronged and hurt others will also be included. Jesus said as much, when he told the
criminal hanging and dying next to him, “Truly I say unto you, today you will
be with me in Paradise.” My God -- our
God -- is that big.
This takes me to another question we
might want to think about jointly: How
do you get there? (I’ll be touching on
this in my following blast to John.)
Hold onto Your Hat, John!
I take no offense in what you say – but it does gets me charged up. (I will run down that ball on the tennis court.) Actually, it’s helpful to hear your perceptions of my faith – it sparks me to refine and articulate what I believe. (But be prepared, the shot is coming back at you!)
You assume my references to forgiveness stem from a Christian, Lutheran, Puritan, deep-rooted sense of guilt. You imply, “What kind of symbiotic relationship between God and man is that? People who must constantly run back to God for forgiveness, and a God who takes pleasure in dispensing this forgiveness to a bunch of inadequate humans.”
I would agree, that is not the kind of relationship God wants with us. God would expect us to be thankful -- and a whole host of other give-and-takes to be enjoyed in our relationship with him. Our repentance and his forgiveness are but one aspect of this rich union with God.
But this is a relationship of unequals. We are not God’s equal. In previous discussions, I recall some mention of us “becoming” more like God. I would agree. In fact, the Bible is filled with references to the Holy Spirit -- his gift to us to help us become more like him. (A discussion of the Holy Spirit might be a good topic for later.) However, we can never be good enough, smart enough, or rich enough to come to God and say, “Welcome me into your kingdom, I deserve it.”
Perhaps your concern is this. “I don’t really need forgiveness. Yes, I’ve done some less than admirable things in my life, but I can still enter into a relationship with God without requiring forgiveness. All this forgiveness and trust/faith stuff makes it sound like I’m dependent on God.” Isn’t that pride?
“The love Jesus demonstrated through the sacrifices he made were admirable. But that has nothing to do with my relationship to God. I don’t believe those sacrifices were made on my behalf.” Pride?
I’ll be a little more charitable in my characterization. You might call it self-actualization. That still takes me farther off the path of humility than I’m comfortable with.
What will get you to God? A complete understanding of him, gleaned from the richest of the world’s literature (including the Bible)? Not possible. Besides, knowing God is not the same as loving God, or being loved by him. Leading a perfectly good life? Not possible either.
In my reading of the Bible, God seems to say,
“Come
to me. Enjoy a full and mutually rewarding relationship with me. I love
and welcome your humanity. Seek, trust, and enjoy my divinity. In
fact, I’ll give you a taste of my divinity
through the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I ask only one thing. That thing is not that you fully understand
me or perfectly obey me. I know these
are not humanly possible. The one thing
I ask is very simple -- so simple even the smallest of children are capable of
it. Even more, unless you have the
faith of even the smallest of these, you cannot enter into the kind of
relationship I wish to have with you.
All I ask is that you trust that I
love you. I know of no better way to
demonstrate my love for you and all mankind than through the life, death, and
resurrection of Jesus.”
Can you think of a better way for God to demonstrate his universal love for all mankind? I welcome your thoughts. Presumably, your answer would not be to make us perfect or all-knowing, since that would take away our free will and the fun of intellectual inquiry. Also, I’m not talking about personal demonstrations of his love, the blessing and chastising we experience in our daily lives.
Footnote on Adam and Eve
Are we innately wicked? No. God made us in his image and intended
for us to enjoy his goodness. But Adam and Eve did sin, and it wasn’t
in
eating the apple. (Again, time to see
what we learn from a non-literal reading.) Their sin was lack of faith
and disobedience. God said don’t eat from that tree. Doubt came into
their mind (disregarding the serpent in this
non-literal view), “What God said isn’t true, you won’t die from eating
this
fruit.” So what happens, they make that
free will choice. “I don’t trust that
what God told me is for my own good. I’m going to find out for myself.”
And so they did. They now know
good and evil, and presumably wish they didn’t.
These were good people, separated from
God by a lack of trust and disobedience. So are we. As we grow up, we
sometimes make the same errant choices. He still loves us.
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